Abortion is a Men's Issue

After Sunday's second apparent assassination attempt, former Senator Claire McCaskill and former Harris senior advisor Symone Sanders Townsend reflect on the volatility of the moment, and the importance of taking down the temperature, while not shying away from calling out incendiary comments intended to stoke the flames. Then, the co-founder of Men4Choice , Oren Jacobson, joins the dynamic duo to break down his mission to reframe reproductive choice from being a 'women's issue' to one that men fiercely advocate for as well. And lastly, as November inches closer and polls are dropping daily, a natural anxiety is ramping up among both campaigns. Claire and Symone dispense some wisdom on how to think about these snapshots that represent a moment in time.

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Claire McCaskill: Hello, and welcome to "How to Win 2024." It's Thursday morning, September 19th. I'm Claire McCaskill. I'm thrilled to be here with my guest co-pilot today, MSNBC's own star, Simone Sanders Townsend. She's a former senior advisor and chief spokesperson for Vice President Harris and now co-host "The Weekend" with Alicia Menendez and Michael Steele. Hey, Simone.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Greetings, Claire. The people can't see me, but I was like raising the roof as you were doing your intro. It's always good to be here with you and I'm excited to chat today. Not like there's not anything happening in the world.

Claire McCaskill: Yeah, and we're down to, we're in the 40s, Simone.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Yeah.

Claire McCaskill: I mean, I wish I was in the 40s.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: I'm not yet in the 40s.

Claire McCaskill: Oh, don't even, don't even. Rub it in, rub it in, rub it in. But we are in the 47 days to go until election day. And as you know, it's the hardest time because it's when everybody's anxiety gets ramped up. And we're going to talk at the end of the pod today, we're going to talk about all the polling and how that produces a great deal of anxiety. But this week we've had a lot going on. We've had 111 more Republicans signing an open letter backing Vice President Harris and calling the former president unfit to serve. And it is continuing to build the number of Republicans that are openly saying he cannot occupy the oval.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Yeah. We're going to dig into all of that. And also in a bit, Claire and I are going to check in with the co-founder and head of Men4Choice, Oren Jacobson. And he's doing really amazing work, and he's going to talk about his mission to help men understand that reproductive freedom is not just an issue for women to tackle, but it needs to be front and center for men as well. And Claire has really been beating the drum on this, which I think is completely right, because if we are not talking about men in this reproductive freedom conversation, we're only talking to part of the people who are literally critical to this conversation.

Claire McCaskill: Yep. But first, the FBI is continuing to investigate a second apparent Trump assassination attempt on Sunday. How, if we were in the room, Simone, how would we be talking to the campaign about how to handle this? This is tricky. I think it's tricky because 100%, no one wants Donald Trump to be hurt.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Absolutely.

Claire McCaskill: No one. President Biden doesn't. Vice President Harris doesn't. But the idea that after this happens, the first thing that Trump and Vance start doing is not calming things down, but rather ramping it up by blaming this all on the Democratic Party and the Democratic ticket. It is really hard for me, especially when you take a cold factual look at the rhetoric that Donald Trump embraces every day.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: That he himself has espoused. I mean, first of all, Claire, you know, when you're in rooms like, when a crisis happens, I remember being in so many rooms with then candidate Biden, obviously Vice President Harris, when we had to put a statement together. And it's like, what are we going to say? Because the words of the Democratic nominee or the president or the vice president of the United States, to be very clear, they matter. And they set the tone. And I really do believe that what we heard from President Biden and Vice President Harris, it was the right tone. I'm glad former President Trump is okay. There's no place for political violence. Like these are, you know, you kind of do an outline of these are the points we really need to hit because people need to hear these loud and clear.

But if I was in the room, I would also be ensuring that we would have a conversation about how we should not allow them to gaslight us or to co-opt the conversation, us as in the Democrats, if I was in that room, as to pretend as though it is Kamala Harris or Joe Biden who have ramped up the temperature. I fundamentally believe we need to be laser clear, very focused and clear-eyed about who has ramped up the temperature and who continues to turn the temperature up. And that is Donald Trump and J.D. Vance on this particular issue and a host of other Republicans within the Republican Party apparatus. Not everyone. We just talked about the 111 that just recently endorsed Vice President Harris and Tim Walz's campaign.

You also had a number of Reagan Republicans, people who worked for Ronald Reagan, who said Ronald Reagan said, this is a time for choosing. And they fundamentally believe that if he were alive today, he would be enthusiastically backing and endorsing the Harris-Walz ticket. That is important to say and do. So it's not every Republican, but the man who is running to be the next president of the United States who had previously had the job, his rhetoric is way too hot. Language matters, and the language that we use matters. I will not participate in false equivalencies, and I don't think other folks should either. It is a false equivalency to say that Donald Trump and his agenda as a threat to democracy is the same as the conspiracy theories and lies that are threatening the lives of people, Haitian people right now in Springfield, Ohio. It's not the same. And people just have to call it out for what it is.

Claire McCaskill: Yeah. If you look at political violence in this country, there is a lot of political violence that has occurred. There are mass shootings that have occurred because of political ideology. There was an attack on our nation's capital that was violent. If you don't think it was violent, go back and look at the tape. And Donald Trump, while that violence was going on, was refusing to do anything to try to stop it for hours. He constantly says that Democrats are executing babies -

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Yeah.

Claire McCaskill: - and that because the Democrats were under invasion by rapists and murderers. He only speaks almost always in falsehoods and always in hyperbole. He always takes it to the very extreme. It is that speech, which he is entitled to under our constitution, but that's what's turned up the temperature here. It's not saying that refusing to acknowledge you lost an election is a threat to democracy. That's not turning up the temperature. So I know that our candidates are not going to turn up the temperature, but I sure hope this doesn't cause them to stop spitting truths because the American people need to hear the truths right now.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: They desperately need the truth. And also, you know, Claire, I was just very disturbed by, I've heard it on conservative radio and podcasts and more conservative outlets, but it's starting to bleed out into mainstream that they quote, unquote, "this is the second time they tried to kill Donald Trump." Who is the they?

Claire McCaskill: Right.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: I think that language is quite irresponsible.

Claire McCaskill: You're right.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Democrats are not targeting and wishing for the assassination of anyone, but especially not a former president of the United States of America. That's insane. That's ridiculous. And it is irresponsible to say. And that they has been doing a lot of work over the last couple of days, especially, but this was not the first time that has been said, because after the first assassination attempt, you know, conservative commentators got on television and said they tried to kill him. The they is trying to be a stand-in for Democrats and people need to see, we just need to knock down that language right now, because that is what's dangerous here.

Claire McCaskill: The man who actually pulled a trigger had Donald Trump's signs in his yard and was a registered Republican. The man who didn't pull the trigger in Florida was all over the map. I mean, he was a Donald Trump supporter in the past. He loved Vivek Ramaswamy as a candidate. This time he has expressed support for the Ukraine war. So he has really been all over the place. But speaking of stoking the flames of fear and division, we had a moment where the mask came off of J.D. Vance, where he owned up to creating stories. Let's listen to his words, what he said on CNN about making up stories.

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J.D. Vance: The American media totally ignored this stuff until Donald Trump and I started talking about cat memes.

Dana Bash: But it wasn't just a meme, sir.

J.D. Vance: If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that's what I'm going to do, Dana, because you guys are completely letting Kamala Harris coast.

Dana Bash: You just said that this is a story that you created.

J.D. Vance: Yes.

Dana Bash: So the eating dogs and cats thing is not accurate.

J.D. Vance: We are creating, Dana, it comes from firsthand accounts from my constituents. I say that we're creating a story, meaning we're creating the American media focusing on it.

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Claire McCaskill: So he's admitting that he is creating a narrative that is dangerous, hateful, and racist in order to try to win an election. I mean, just plain and simple.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: And I mean, wearing it as a badge of honor, he felt there was nothing wrong with admitting that he made it up. And we have since learned actually that when J.D. Vance said this, it's not as though he found out after the fact that it was a lie and it was made up. His team came to him reportedly and told him that this was not true before he went out to spew this false information.

And you know NBC News has reported, Claire, that says that these rumors are threaten to unravel Springfield that it's a town on edge. It's been thrust into the spotlight. You've got all of these city officials who are Republicans by the way who are coming out saying please stop this. This is not happening. It is not true We want people who are saying this about our town and our community to stop saying that. The city has been forced to close schools. City hall and other municipal buildings have had bomb threats. People are scared. And this is just nothing but trying to other someone, other a group of people.

Claire McCaskill: That's right.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: This is a strategy that Donald Trump has employed from the beginning, frankly, since he came down that escalator. And it is a strategy that is used because when you can successfully other someone or a group of people or individuals, that means you have successfully taken away their humanity. And if you can have Americans not seeing other people in this country as human, if you can't see their humanity, then it makes it much, much easier for people to excuse what may happen to them.

Claire McCaskill: Yeah, and the children, they're going to carry this their entire life.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: It's devastating.

Claire McCaskill: It is devastating. And let's also emphasize here, these are legal immigrants.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Very legal.

Claire McCaskill: These are legal immigrants. So they have now crossed a line. That they have now gone from saying every problem in America is because of immigrants that don't have legal status in our country. And now they're saying the problems in America are caused by immigrants who are here legally. I mean, that really should be an eye opener to a whole lot of people out there as to what these folks are up to.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Yes. And Claire, and Donald Trump is talking about deporting the people in Springfield, the Haitian people in Springfield who are legally there. To your point, this is not just hyperbole. They have a plan. It's denaturalization, which is basically stripping citizenship from folks. And if people really think that we are making this up, I just want you to go ahead and take a look at, just Google Stephen Miller, Trump administration, denaturalization 2017.

Claire McCaskill: Yeah, he's into this. And Stephen Miller, it won't surprise me if Trump wins that he would be attorney general.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Oh, goodness, Claire.

Claire McCaskill: Oh, it wouldn't surprise me at all. So our candidate did the National Association of Black Journalists this week. The hue and cry for her to do more interviews. She is doing that now. I think you're going to see her do more and more. How'd she do?

Simone Sanders-Townsend: I thought she did good, really good actually. The interview started with her talking, answering a question about the economy. And like any good politician, Claire, you know, when they ask you about your quintessential piece of what you want to do in your campaign, she went on and on and she could have gone on, I think for another 10 minutes about her economic policy. And the journalists kind of had to jump in and say, cause they wanted to get to additional questions. But I thought it was a very substantive interview. You got to see some very deep pieces of her plan on the economy, but also how she's thinking about earning votes from folks across the country.

We got some of the most, I think, emotional reaction, frankly, from the vice president when it came to the issue of what is being said about Haitian people all over America, but it's in the community of Springfield. And she talked about the children.

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Kamala Harris: I mean, my heart breaks for this community. You know, there were children, elementary school children, it was school photo day. You remember what that's like? Going to school on picture day, who dressed up in their best, got all ready, knew what they were going to wear the night before, and had to be evacuated. Children, children, a whole community put in fear. And I'll say a couple things about it. One, you know, I learned a long time ago in my career having a background as a prosecutor. When you have these positions, when you have that kind of microphone in front of you, you really ought to understand at a very deep level how much your words have meaning.

(END VT)

Simone Sanders-Townsend: She talked about earning the votes of black men.

(BEGIN VT)

Kamala Harris: Then I think it's very important to not operate from the assumption that black men are in anybody's pocket. Black men are like any other voting group. You got to earn their vote. So I'm working to earn the vote, not assuming I'm going to have it because I am black, but because the policies and the perspectives I have understands what we must do to recognize the needs of all communities. And I intend to be a president for all people, specifically as it relates to what we need to do, to your point, around economic opportunity.

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Simone Sanders-Townsend: She talked about a range of policy issues. And I know some people think, oh, this isn't about policy for the voters. The people I've been talking to, Claire, they do. They want to know what she's going to do. They feel like they kind of know what Donald Trump is going to do and they don't like that. So they want to know, well, what is she going to do so that they can make an informed plan? And I think this NABJ interview helped definitely tease a lot of that out.

Claire McCaskill: I think the good news is she is not taking black votes for granted, which is very, very important. I think the good news is she had more meat on the bone in terms of her economic policies, which was good. The good news was that she showed real emotion and heart around talking about the children of Springfield, Ohio, and that she still is just masterful in the way she frames reproductive freedom as the really centerpiece of her effort to win the presidency. Where she, I think, struggled a little bit, I think she was clearly not comfortable talking about reparations, which I understand. It's a tough one. And also, I think she struggled somewhat on the Gaza answer. You know, the danger on the Gaza answer is that you've got to be careful it doesn't sound like talking points.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Or even new policy because she's a sitting vice president.

Claire McCaskill: Exactly. So, first of all, if it was an easy issue, this would have been solved decades ago. This is a really thorny problem in the Middle East. On those two questions, I think, and you can sense from the audience on those two questions, that they were not going to just give her a free pass, which I think it's important for her to know that going forward. She's going to have some other tough interviews. And I think she's got to show that she's ready to handle the questions, even those ones that are the hardest to answer.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Yeah. I mean, it goes to show why doing the National Association of Black Journalists interviews was very important. And I will just note, like, look, the journalists ask very pointed questions and it seems frankly, you know, if I was in the room, I would have, you know, in the prep, people should know, hey, there's one president at a time. And I know you all want to know, how specifically my policy is going to differ from President Biden's when it comes to dealing with Prime Minister Netanyahu specifically, because that's what I think you're talking about. And when I win this election, I'll have more to say about that.

Claire McCaskill: Yeah. It's hard to step on the toes of foreign policy especially when the president that you serve under is busy trying as we speak to negotiate an end to the horrific conflict in Gaza. So, we're going to pause here. Up next, Oren Jacobson. The head of Men4Choice joins us to talk about the importance of men being part of women's fight for reproductive freedom. Back with him in a moment.

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Claire McCaskill: Welcome back. My co-host, Simone Sanders-Townsend is still with me. Okay, Simone, you and I are both the longtime champions of women's reproductive freedom and choice. But frankly, I've given a lot of thought lately to the idea that we have called it women's freedom and choice and we've left out of that frame men. And I think it's really important that we start pulling them in to this discussion because they have a lot of stake too here. And this isn't, you know, you don't make a baby with just women.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Men have a role to play too, Claire.

Claire McCaskill: Yes, they do. Yes, they do. Our next guest kind of flips the script in a way that I think is really positive on this idea.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: I agree. Definitely, he does. Oren Jacobson co-founded Men4Choice in Illinois back in 2015. So he was on the front end. He was a pioneer in this and he founded it to educate and organize men in the fight for reproductive rights. And Oren joins us now. Welcome, Oren.

Oren Jacobson: How are you all?

Claire McCaskill: We're good. It's great to have you. So let's talk about the origin of this organization and how it came about, especially I'm interested in the timing, because obviously 2015 was back when we all took Roe for granted.

Oren Jacobson: So yeah, if you can rewind with me to the spring of 2015, Barack Obama was still president. And I think like most people, I was under the assumption that Secretary Clinton was going to be the next president and away we'd go. And I certainly didn't imagine the idea that Roe would be overturned.

At that time I was working as a national chapter development director for a large leadership development org in the broader progressive movement. I was sitting in the back of the room listening to a presentation by a woman who works nationally in this space. And she was talking about what was happening at the state level in 2015. And basically in seven minutes, she convinced me that the anti-abortion movement had a plan, not just to overturn Roe, but to overturn Roe as step one, and that plan was actually viable.

And I just had a moment and it was really just this combination of anger and embarrassment. Anger at the fact that this was happening, anger at the harm it was causing, and embarrassment that as someone who's as involved as I was at that time, civically and politically, I had no idea what was happening. And so that just led to a series of questions, most of which were centered on what do men think about abortion? And I started looking at the polling on it and saw that, you know, most men are actually pro-choice, that there's not really a gender divide on the issue in terms of support for abortion rights in the country. And then started to think about, well, okay, if most men are pro-choice, where are they given the fact that the only men that were standing up and talking about this were guys who were trying to ban and criminalize abortion.

And that just sort of led to a series of thoughts about why is this happening and what can you do to change it? It obviously evolved after, in particular, the election of Donald Trump, where I think for lots of reasons, my understanding of the issue and the moment and the cultural context around abortion bans changed.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Well, first of all, who is your target strategy? And I'm very interested in this, that it changed during the Trump administration. Obviously, I mean, I'm very interested to know what was the impetus? What was the thing that -

Oren Jacobson: Yeah.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: - said to you like, oh, this is a little bit more than a few swing districts -

Oren Jacobson: Yeah.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: - in the state legislature.

Oren Jacobson: So maybe you've had an experience like this in your life, right? Where like you've done something you thought was good, you succeeded at something and all of a sudden you find out people who are on your team are mad at you for something. I had a moment like that and the moment is very specific. And in early 2017, we were working on a piece of legislation in Illinois called HB 40, House Bill 40, and it did several things but the most important of which were it overturned trigger language in the state's criminal code around abortion so if Roe or when Roe fell, Illinois would be protected. And Men4Choice played a small but important role in helping that bill pass. And I found out some people were mad and in particular, some women who worked in politics.

Now my inclination when I find out people are upset with me is like, I want to talk to you and just hear you out. And so I met with everybody that I knew was upset. And I just asked, what are we doing wrong? What do I need to learn? And one of them said something so profound to me, which was, I'm mad you exist because I'm mad you have to exist. And then she went on to say, I tell my boyfriend to donate the Planned Parenthood and he just nods and does nothing. You come along and host a fundraiser where he gets to put his name on your flyer and look like a good guy. And all of a sudden he's giving you $250. And so in that moment, I sat back and I said, oh, there's something else here.

And that something is the way in which, one, men are ignoring women including the women they love on this issue. And two, that the problem is actually not simply political, it's cultural, right? That we had to shift the way that men were thinking about this issue or were opening their ears on this issue in order to actually affect change meaningfully. Because if we're honest, right, this problem only exists because men with power are using their power to control women's bodies and people who can get pregnant. That's it, right? There was, I think, 1,600 votes in 2023 for abortion bans at the state level across the country and 86% of those votes came from men.

Claire McCaskill: So now after Roe has fallen and as we are faced with really draconian abortion bans in many states, including the next door neighbor to Illinois and Missouri, Men4Choice is now more narrowly focused on a -

Oren Jacobson: Yeah.

Claire McCaskill: - certain segment of men. Let's talk about what you're doing right now -

Oren Jacobson: Yeah.

Claire McCaskill: - for this election to try to mobilize men. And one of the things that's never talked about, Oren, and I'd love you to touch on it, is that men are giving up their freedom and power too because if there is an unintended pregnancy, I know for a fact that there are millions of men across the country that say to women who have just found out they are pregnant, I will be happy to help you financially and be with you and support you, but I think we should terminate this pregnancy. I think we should terminate this the minute we find out. I mean, are men figuring out that in a huge swath of the country, that is no longer an option for them and they will be responsible for helping -

Oren Jacobson: Yeah.

Claire McCaskill: - financially support this child for the rest of their lives and they will not have the option -

Oren Jacobson: Yeah.

Claire McCaskill: - in some states, even of the morning after pill.

Oren Jacobson: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we identified over what I would say is thousands of conversations, in some ways, Men4Choice is the longest running focus group of passively pro-choice men in American history. So as a starting point, we focus primarily on people who are ideologically aligned, right? We're talking with men who have not been active on abortion rights. And so what we've found is that they don't fully understand the harm as a first point. Like it's not obvious, especially before Dobbs fell, it's not obvious how abortion bans are hurting people, families, et cetera. That's becoming more clear now, and particularly because we're seeing horrific stories like the ones out of Georgia, where women are literally dying because they're being denied care.

But when we're talking with these men, beyond helping them understand that harm, we're actually trying to help them reframe the way they see themselves in this fight from just simply an ally, meaning like, you know, Claire and Simone, I'm here because I care about you as humans, to a stakeholder, which is my rights are under attack, my freedom is under attack. And so in particular, I'm going to just make this about me for a second. I'm married. 42 years old, wife, a three and a half year old kid. My wife had a very hard first pregnancy. We've been talking for two years about having another child. And if the government has the power to control my wife's body, the government has the power to control my family. So my body may not be under attack, but my rights are, my family is, and my freedom is, right?

In the context of a healthy relationship, this is a conversation that husbands and wives and partners have together. And nobody else should have any say in that decision. Now, granted, I don't get more than 49% of the vote in our household democracy on, you know, expanding our family. But like, that's a real thing. And so my literal freedom to build my family the way my wife and I think is best is under attack and in 22 states, I wouldn't have that freedom. I'm lucky to live in Illinois, but in Missouri, Claire, in Florida, in Georgia, in Alabama, and so many other states, men there are learning the hard way. They don't have that freedom and they're learning the hardest lesson, which is your wife may literally die from this because of what is happening.

If you're an LGBTQ plus man, you live in a state that bans abortion. They're also coming after your rights as well. So that's what we talk about a lot in terms of the framing of stakeholder and trying to help men see themselves, not simply as an ally, but with something to lose. And by the way, it's really critical because when they get there, they're twice as likely to take action on this issue, which is really important, especially in a moment like this. And Claire, I'll get to your other question now, which is, what are we doing today? What we are doing today, is we have organizers on the ground in Florida, in Georgia, in North Carolina, in Arizona, helping out into Wisconsin and Michigan, a few guys in Missouri. And they're literally recruiting more men to support partner organizations to communicate with voters, text banking, phone banking, canvassing, to make sure that more people hear about what's at stake, hear about the ballot initiatives, hear about the opportunity to restore rights in a state like Missouri and a state like Florida.

We focus our training programs heavily on men who are between 18 and 28 for two reasons. One, it's easier to change culture by shaping culture, right? Helping them as they're forming themselves see this in a different way than I saw it as a young man. And two, they have the passion, energy, and time to volunteer, to knock doors, to phone bank. So spending time with these young men, we can address the culture, cultivate a new generation of leaders who are thinking about this, speaking about this.

Claire McCaskill: You know, One of the things that I think really is powerful here is men talking to men.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: And I think that makes a difference in the receptiveness of the conversation. And I also think it could change the conversation. Oren, have you seen the conversation? Like what is different when it is men and talking to men about this issue? And the states you name, I mean, there are 10 different states of which -

Oren Jacobson: Right.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: - on the ballot, some type of amendment about reproductive freedom is on the ballot in this upcoming election cycle in a lot of these red states as well. Are you seeing a difference of the concerns coming from men in the red states?

Oren Jacobson: Yeah. I mean, in the red states in particular, they feel the harm, they feel the pain, they're seeing the stories, they're learning about our friend Derek Cook down in Florida whose wife, Anya Cook, nearly died last year from Florida's abortion ban. And they're feeling and seeing this in a really different way and it's not partisan. It's not partisan for them and it's not partisan there. And especially in states where there's a referenda where I have the chance to vote up or down, yes or no on an issue. We've seen across the country that this wins all the time because it's not partisan in the voting booth on that issue.

In a general sense, I think we all know that the messenger and the message matters, right? And look, I get that there's this socialized reality that I mentioned at the beginning, which is men aren't listening to women and part of our work is to actually change that. That's why it matters that men are talking to men. We get that in politics, that surrogates from communities are the most effective messengers to those communities. So we've got the socialized issue, we've got sort of the reality of the right way to engage in politics, but I do think the single most important aspect of what we do, and I think the single most important aspect of how we will change this over time is male to male, peer to peer, man to man conversation with men talking to other men about why they care and helping engage them in, right? Serving as an entry point to this conversation and to this movement, which focuses on men talking to men about abortion.

Claire McCaskill: What about messaging? Are we missing something here? I've seen some really powerful ads that speak to women, frankly, in their gut, in their head, in their heart, but in their gut because all women can see themselves in the position that many of these women are talking about in these very powerful messaging, both on social media and even on legacy, linear, old time media. You have a really powerful video on your website where a phone gets pinged and someone is told, you know, that the state has a new law that requires men to get a vasectomy. And the man reacts like, what bullshit is that? That I think is a really powerful way to communicate to men how women are feeling about this because it personalizes it to their bodily autonomy. Have you had any input or are you all trying to do any of the messaging, particularly in social media that equates this more from a male perspective as opposed to a female perspective?

Oren Jacobson: Yeah, great question. So I want to separate out like electoral messaging from culture change messaging. I wouldn't claim to be the expert on electoral messaging, but we've been very involved on the broader question of how do we shift the framing language and approach in the engagement of men? And we've provided that to all the partners we have. So as an example, step one is typically always about harm, like how are people hurt, right?

So even in the notion of that video you mentioned where it's like the state forces men to get a vasectomy, it's sort of starting with this idea of like, these laws can hurt you, right? Step two is usually about reframing the issue into a broader fight, not just about abortion, but about freedom and power and control, right? Because what these laws actually are about at the end of the day are about control. It's about whether or not you are free to build your family the way you want to, or whether the government has the power to control you, that's it. Like none of these laws help healthcare or families, et cetera.

So those are a couple of the simple ways that we think about this is harm and then grounding this in sort of more universal values. And we've seen that be really effective in moving the needle on what I think is the most important aspect of this, which is whether or not men see this as their fight. So, this is about making stakes clear. It's about highlighting, and I'm going to use your word, which we had a campaign with this called, call bullshit. It's about highlighting the bullshit. And it's about making sure that this is a question of power, freedom, and control. Either the government has the power to control you, or you and your partner have the freedom to build your family and live your life the way that you want and there is no in-between between those two points.

Claire McCaskill: I'm really glad you came on. I think it's something we have just skipped over. And frankly, it kind of pisses me off that we skipped over it. You know, I think women have carried too much of this and I'm glad that you figured that out a long time ago, that men need to step up. Men step up for women in their lives in a lot of different ways. But this is one way that is really important. And I think your organization is putting an exclamation point on that and telling men that not only should they do it for the women they love and care about. They should do it because it impacts their lives and it encroaches on their freedom.

So we are thrilled to have you today, Oren, and what you're doing on the ground, especially in these referendum states, it is really important. I think Missouri is poised to be the very first state to overturn a complete ban. And this is why, by the way, while Donald Trump wins the state, probably by more than 10 points. So that tells you something about this issue, the power of this issue that it too can overcome the polarization that Donald Trump has brought down upon our head in this country.

Oren Jacobson: That's right. Well, it's great to be with you all. Thank you for everything you do. Big fans, watch your shows or watch you on the shows, I should say at all times. And yeah, to your point, women have been carrying this burden for a long time alone. Men need to carry some of this burden alongside with you. And there are more of us than there are of them. So we just need men to get off the sidelines and into the fight to do something with us. And to your point, I think we're going to win in Missouri. I think we're going to win in Florida where it's a 60% threshold. I think we're going to win everywhere abortion is on the ballot. And I should also say abortion is on every ballot period, full stop in 2024.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Oren Jacobson, the men are a part of the conversation too. Thank you so much.

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Claire McCaskill: Oren Jacobson, Executive Director and co-founder of men4choice.org. Thanks so much for taking the time today. And we'll talk to you down the road. After the break, Simone and I are going to take a peek at some of the post-debate polling and what the big E, enthusiasm can do. Back with more in a moment.

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Claire McCaskill: Welcome back. My co-host, MSNBC host, Simone Sanders-Townsend is still with me. Simone, you may not know this about me, but I am such a nerd when it comes to polls. I mean, I've been known to read cross tabs in midterm elections in states where I have absolutely no knowledge. I just like to read cross tabs and I can't resist all of the numbers. And boy, they're flying around now. First, Simone, talk about how polling causes anxiety inside of a campaign.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Oh my goodness.

Claire McCaskill: How do you protect a candidate from that anxiety?

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Well, look, Claire, especially when you get a flurry of polls that are now coming out every single week, it is easy, especially because the candidates themselves don't have the time to read the cross tabs, okay. And they are out there talking with voters, but also, you know, they're around their family and friends in some respects, might be picking up the phone and calling and saying, hey, did you see this poll when they're really reading a headline?

And so I do think polls can really be an anxiety turn or upper, if you will, for campaign staff across the board, especially when we're in the 40s when it comes to being out from election day, which is why people have to understand that polls are not predictive. They are indicative of a snapshot in time and campaigns should be using polling depending on what kind of poll it is, Claire. You know, I feel about the national polls now. That's not going to tell us much about a presidential election. A generic ballot is not going to tell us much about a presidential. I care about those battleground state polls. They should be using that polling to inform kind of what their strategy is, that they need to retool coupling with what they are hearing on the ground and seeing with their own eyes in order to be successful on election day. So I like polling. I'm not one of those people that say throw the polls out. No, we need the polls now, but which polls are we looking at?

Claire McCaskill: Yeah. And we will probably have (inaudible) again before the election. And we've had him on before. Polling is important for trends. It's not really important in terms of snapshots. And there's a couple of trends. And one that I want to point out is Iowa is not a battleground state, won't be a battleground state, but Ann Selzer is an incredibly respected pollster in Iowa. Very rarely gets anything wrong in Iowa. Her poll back when Biden was the candidate had Biden down by 18 points in June. She had one this week that has Kamala Harris down by four in Iowa.

Now, that's not a battleground state, but it is a trend and it is a big trend. It is such a big trend. And when you look at the cross tabs of that poll, which I did, one of the things that jumped out at me was the enthusiasm number. And I got to tell you, Simone, all of these battleground polls, you're exactly right. There are basically seven polls that the campaign should be focused on. And you've got the blue wall, which is Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. And then you've got the sunbelt, which is Georgia, North Carolina, Arizona, Nevada.

You look at those seven polls and clearly Trump is going all in Pennsylvania. And then they just placed $17 million worth of ads in North Carolina. A huge buy for them. I'm sure the PAC will follow quickly. They clearly are going to go all in North Carolina. If they can win in Pennsylvania, if Trump can win in Pennsylvania and win in North Carolina, he will be president.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Oh yeah.

Claire McCaskill: So they are now going on that strategy in Georgia and kind of, I don't know that they're abandoning Wisconsin and Michigan, but they clearly are putting all their chips in those states. I don't think there's that many people that are persuadable in these states. And so, really, it does come down to enthusiasm. Who is feeling the most energy and how are the campaigns focused on finding those people that didn't vote in 2020. Maybe voted in 2008 for Barack Obama, but maybe haven't voted since? Or people who are just registered, young people who just registered for the first time. How do they keep the enthusiasm? And that's what I'm looking at in these polls. Is she continuing to do better than Trump on the enthusiasm level? What do you think?

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Well, if you just look at the data of these battleground state polls and what they're on the cross tabs, the answer is unequivocally absolutely yes on enthusiasm. Vice President Harris's campaign is benefiting astronomically when it comes to that particular number. And when you look at a place like Iowa. There's only one currently statewide elected Democrat in Iowa, and that is the Iowa auditor. His name is Rob Sand. He's one statewide Democrat in Iowa. You know what, a state that used mirror Florida. Florida, Nikki Fried, who is now the current Democratic Party chair of Florida, at one point in time was the only statewide Democrat that was elected. All the others statewide, the congressional delegation, all the other statewide offices, they were all held by Republicans.

But when you get in there and you do the work and you have enthusiasm of people that want to show up and show out that is, you know, the top of the ticket that trickles down, if you will, unlike economic policy, but that's another story, that can make a difference for a state. And so the enthusiasm number I think is critical. You can use that to bolster the infrastructure because I still believe it is infrastructure, ground games, turning people out that win elections. And these newly registered folks, people who are currently, I mean, the numbers from vote.gov about people who are recently registered to vote, the numbers coming out as the roles are being updated in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona, Iowa, North Carolina about the demographics, the number of young people that are signing up to vote.

To me, that says those people are enthusiastic. And if you are a newly registered voter, you are more likely to go to the polls and maybe even vote early, actually. You're not one of those undecided voters. One of those, you know, maybe a base democratic voter, but you need to be persuaded not to not vote for Donald Trump, but to, you know, make sure you get to the polls. We're not talking about those folks right now. These enthusiastic people are folks that are, if you live in Pennsylvania, I probably casted your ballot this week because this was the first week of early voting in the state.

Claire McCaskill: So if people are thinking about what they can do to help, I think a lot of people focus a lot on, I've got to talk people who are for Trump out of it. I've got to somehow make them see the light. How can they actually be for this guy? I run into people all the time that say to me, what can I say to my uncle, you know, to talk him out of it? He's lost his mind. He's for Donald Trump. What is wrong with him? I really want to encourage those people to turn away from that effort. Maybe not entirely. Maybe there's a few you can talk down and maybe they'll see the light, but there's got to be people in your lives that have not been regular voters.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Yeah.

Claire McCaskill: There got to be people in your lives that maybe aren't even registered to vote. There've got to be people that you encounter every day that say to you, I don't vote, it doesn't make a difference or politics is just I'm burned out on it. It's just too much. I just don't even want to talk about it.

Those are the people that are going to make a difference in this presidential election. And so quit thinking that you're going to get your uncle that drives you crazy to get off the Trump train and find somebody who's never gotten on any train and get them on the train to vote in November. It's way more important.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: Find somebody who has yet to buy a train ticket, okay, and get them on board. Look, I think you're right about the people that are trying to put all their eggs in the basket of persuading the reliably Trump voters, because what we know about Trump voters is that they are committed, but they are not the entirety of the Republican party. Donald Trump has a ceiling and he has hit it. The difference for Vice President Harris is that she has much more room to grow her support. Her tent of her campaign is much bigger and there are many more entry points.

I was just yesterday, Claire, talking to a group of very well-informed business people, right, and we got on the topic of when we talk about low propensity voters or low information voters and I said to them, I said, you know, oftentimes when we say that, you would think we're talking about your cousin, okay? Or the people that we don't know that maybe live down the street and we have to go and educate the vote. But some of you all are low propensity voters. Do you know how many people? If there's a ballot initiative on the ballot in your state -

Claire McCaskill: Right.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: - are you aware of how many state legislative seats are available? Like, do you know, okay, if you live in North Carolina, what you're going to do when it comes to the governor's race, the state legislative race, and the state Supreme Court race in addition to the presidency? So there is a lot of work that I think people who are engaged and involved and are excited or like, how can I help? You can phone bank. You can canvass, but you can also ensure that your circle of people and your circle of influence has a plan to vote. Claire McCaskill: Yeah, and quit thinking the polls are going to make you feel better because they won't.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: They won't.

Claire McCaskill: In the battleground states, I mean, there was a bunch of polls. Just when you see a poll out of Pennsylvania that has Harris up by four or five, then you see a couple of polls today from pretty reliable pollsters that show it dead tied. Wisconsin, we thought everything was okay in Wisconsin, and now we're seeing a number of polls out of Wisconsin where it's dead tied. Everyone should understand that none of these polls should make you feel completely comfortable because they are all within the margin of error.

These battlegrounds are going to be a slog. You are never going to see a poll that will make you feel comfortable. If you are seeing a poll that makes you feel comfortable, you're making a mistake. Do not be comfortable. The vice president is not saying that she's the underdog and that this is going to be a close race just to give it lip service. She knows that it is really, really hard to accomplish what she's trying to accomplish. And the polling is not going to be something that will allow you to sleep better between now and the election day. So just get your ass off the couch and get to work.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: That's what it's going to take, Claire. And when the anxiety kicks in, you know, grab your comfort food. Or for me, it's my red wine, okay.

Claire McCaskill: There you go. Me it's chocolate chip cookie. All right. Always great to have you, Simone. Thank you so much for joining us today. And I will see you on the TV screen, I'm sure, many times in the next few weeks. This is like for somebody who loves their country and loves politics, the next six weeks is just like a continuous Super Bowl. So I will see you as we figure out how this is all going to turn out. And you're the best for taking some time with us today.

Simone Sanders-Townsend: It's always great to be with you, Claire. It is like the Super Bowl. I'm going to see you on the field and at the tailgate over the next couple of weeks.

Claire McCaskill: There you go. There you go.

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Claire McCaskill: Thanks for joining us for today's installment of "How to Win 2024." And a big thanks to my co-host today, Simone Sanders-Townsend. She'll be back with me again before election day and looking forward to that. Thanks for joining us on "How to Win." Remember to check out our series on the Threat of Project 2025 and subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. This show is produced by Vicki Vergolina. Janmaris Perez is our Associate Producer. Our Head of Audio Production is Bryson Barnes. Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer for MSNBC Audio. And Rebecca Kutler is the Senior Vice President for Content Strategy at MSNBC. Search for "How to Win 2024," wherever you get your podcasts and follow the series.

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