Has Isaac Okoro’s shot improved enough to make him a true 3-and-D threat? Wine and Gold Talk podcast

CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast , Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor delve into the contributions of Isaac Okoro , whose 3-point shooting continues to improve and adds another layer to the complexity of the Cavs' offense if he can be consistent.

More Cavs coverage

Why Donovan Mitchell apologized after near triple-double and late-game flurry that helped Cavs improve to 13-0

Cavs remain undefeated, hold off undermanned Philadelphia 76ers for 114-106 win

FanDuel Sports Network, television home of the Cavs, is coming to Prime Video

Takeaways:

The Cavs extended their winning streak to 13 games, the sixth best in NBA history.

Halftime adjustments were crucial for the Cavs' performance.

Donovan Mitchell's ability to flip the game is vital, and he is a legitimate MVP candidate this season.

Isaac Okoro is developing into a true 3-and-D player.

Kenny Atkinson's coaching style is fostering team growth.

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Ethan Sands

What up, Cavs Nation? I'm your host, Ethan Sands, and I'm back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. The Cavs weren't there for cheesesteaks, unfortunately for them. They were there, in Philadelphia that is, they were there to play the 76ers on Wednesday and try and extend their winning streak and extend they did. 114 106 it is their 13th straight win. Obviously, we already know this is the best start in franchise history, but it also ties the longest winning streak overall in franchise history, which has been done three separate times. Chris, this was a back and forth game as it has been the last couple of nights when we talk about this Cavs team. What was the turning moment of this game for you when it comes to how the Cavs team adjusted to what didn't go right in the first half and then adjusting in the second half?

Chris (06:16.76)

Yeah, I think the turning point was halftime. Kenny Atkinson talked about it early in the game. The Cavs just weren't playing with the requisite effort. Philly wasn't feeling them. They weren't making sharp cuts offensively. They were sharing the ball and they were getting good looks, but the kind of effort that they've been playing with defensively certainly wasn't there. The physicality wasn't there. And then at halftime, Kenny Atkinson said that he had an honest conversation.

with the guys about picking up the intensity, picking up the defensive effort. And I think the Cavs were a little bit thrown off throughout portions of the first half that Philly was going zone, Philly was going switch everything, Philly was going blitz, Philly was doing a whole bunch of different things to disrupt the Cavs as much as they possibly could. And I feel like their lack of success, at least to the level that they're used to offensively.

was kind of carrying over to the defensive end of the floor. And the Cavs addressed that at halftime. They came out in the second half and they had different intensity. They had a different effort. They had a different fury to the way that they played. And it took them like four minutes to erase the halftime deficit that they were faced with and kind of gain control of the game. And then even though Philly wouldn't go away, credit to them, they were feisty. They played well.

Jared McCain, bad boy. He played really, really well. That's a guy that the Cavs liked in the draft. He won a couple of picks before them. They had the 20th pick. He went 16th. But Donovan scored the final 11. And when he needed to put his imprint on the game from a scoring standpoint and put Philly away, he was able to do that with some clutch shot making. And that's the beauty of having a superstar like Donovan Mitchell, that he can flip it.

in a moment's notice and even though he didn't really have it going from the offensive standpoint, from a shooting standpoint early in the game, when the Cavs needed him the most down the stretch to make the biggest shots and make the biggest plays, he was there to deliver. But it all changed at halftime. You could tell that in the third quarter, the Cavs were a different team than they were in the first half.

Ethan Sands (08:39.086)

And Kenny Atkinson has preached about how the Cavs needed to be better in that third quarter, something that we've talked about on this podcast dating back to last year, because of how the Cavs have not come out with the same intensity or the same want to or need to after halftime, especially when they had a lead. Obviously, believe, Chris, this is one of the only halftime deficits that they've had this year. And Chris, when it comes to Kenny Atkinson, we've talked about how he's been a nice guy, a candid guy, but he reminded us in a recent interview when we talked to him pregame, I believe it was before the Brooklyn Nets game, he said, I'm from New York. Like, it is a blunt nature that I have because not only has Kara Zverk called him crazy in interviews, but also former players from the Warriors when they were here were like, he's very upfront.

He will let you know what he thinks and what he doesn't. And obviously going into halftime with a deficit rather than a lead or even a huge lead like they have earlier into the season. I believe that Kenny Atkinson can turn that crazy on and something that he doesn't do in front of the media and be like, hey, y'all aren't doing things that we have worked on for the last month and some change.

Where is the defensive identity that we've talked about wanting to lean into? I understand Evan Mobley illness Looked like he was a little bit under what under the weather still if you're not going to give it on offense Give it on defense Jared Allen hobbled by in a lower leg injury that he's been dealing with right We talked about it in the last podcast finally got some assurance on that portion of it before tonight's game, right? for me, it's

Being able to be to have all of those different conversations, Chris, right? Like, okay, great, you're doing this well, but we want to turn this up to a different level on games that they're doing well. But in games that they're not having those real conversations like, hey, this isn't going to be the way that we win this game. I don't care about the 13 and no win streak, whatever. I care about winning each game, game by game. And that's what he has told us, at least throughout the season.

Chris (10:39.842)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (10:59.852)

Yeah, it wasn't a perfect performance by the Cavs. It wasn't their best performance during this 13-game winning streak either. But I think it encapsulated why they're still undefeated. It was different guys stepping up at different moments. And you mentioned Jared Allen dealing with the leg issue. He said he took a knee to the lower leg in the game against Chicago.

and he was trying to reduce the swelling as much as possible. And Evan Mobley was so under the weather that like I walked over to talk to him after the game for a story that I'm working on. And one of the members of the PR staff said, I'm not going with you. So if you want to go over there and take your chances, you can. And I walked toward Evan and he was just kind of like, no, it's probably not a good idea for you to be that close to me. I'll get you next time.

But he gave me that kind of look and I said, that's fine. Totally understandable. So he was coughing in the locker room afterward and he was trying to get as many fluids in him as possible. And he didn't even want me that close to him because he didn't want me to pick up what he had. So I respect that from Evan. But that goes to show you just how under the weather he was feeling going into the game. But still at various points,

You know, he had a clutch and one that was really, important. Jared Allen was clean in the glass in the first half. Isaac Ikoro, his on the ball defense to start off the third quarter. Ty Jerome had a stretch again coming off the bench. George Niang almost reaching the double figure mark. Darius Garland picking up the scoring slack early on in the game while Donovan Mitchell.

didn't have his same efficiency. Donovan with his passing, Donovan with his rebounds. So like, it was everybody stepping up at various moments and that is what it has taken for this team. That has become their identity. They're willing to do the little things for one another in order to get wins, whether it shows up on the stat sheet or it doesn't.

Chris (13:20.672)

And even though this wasn't pretty and even though this shouldn't have been that close given the fact that Philly was without Joellenby, Paul George, Tyrese Maxey, and Andre Drummond, and they were playing some dudes that probably should be playing for the Delaware Bluecoats at this point in time, the Cavs found a way by doing the things that they've done pretty much this entire winning streak, sacrificing for one another.

and doing the little things when it mattered the most.

Ethan Sands (13:53.712)

Chris I want to touch on the front court a little bit more before we go into the other stars of the show, right? Being able to have Don being able to have Jared Allen Evan Mobley simply out there Creates havoc on the defensive end like in me it makes offenses have to think like if you are a smaller guard and you get past Donovan and Darius something that we talked about at length to start the season you're met with

Chris (14:08.11)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (14:22.83)

two seven footers in the paint not something you're more than likely going to be willing to go up against rather than kick the ball out and let them rotate and those kinds of things so that also goes back to what we have talked about and what we have seen from jared allen evan mobley and especially what we heard about these two end of last season and even dating back to the new york knicks series and two years ago when they talked about the playoffs and jared allen jared allen

A guy that had a pierced rib in the postseason that kept him out after game four of the playoffs. Everybody was talking about how you should be out there, you should be playing even Marcus Moore Sr. who was no longer on the team, a guy that was on the team at the time. After the season was like, if I had that injury, I would have been playing, right? The toughness, the know-how, the wear and tear that Jared Allen has to go through on every single game.

because of how many screens he sets, how many times he gets off the floor to block shots, all of those different things wears on his body. And to have a lower leg injury being a center where you have to use your legs and every single thing that you do, this not only shows that one, he's heard the criticism, two, that he doesn't care about what you're thinking, but he's going to do what is best for the team if he can. If he can be out there, he is going to be. And then,

On the other hand, Chris, it's great to have for the Cavs. It's great for them to have two, could be all-star centers or front court players. And if they're not doing well, hey, you got two all-star guards. Look at that. And that is what this Cavs team is able to do with the construction of the roster that they have. They can turn to different guys at every given moment. You talked about it.

Darius Garland at the beginning of the game, something that we've seen Donovan Mitchell do in the last two games. Get off to a hot start. And then at the end of the game, Donovan Mitchell, last 11 points, 11 points in the last minute and a half, right? That is what this Cavs team has needed. Somebody, it doesn't matter, even on the bench, Ty Jerome, George Nieng, Karris LaVert, you talk about Sam Merrill was out tonight, but he's also been in this role as well. Somebody steps up in different moments.

Chris (16:27.714)

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (16:50.24)

and having a core four where you can turn to any one of the four throughout any night and say, it's your time to step up and hold the mantle, they're able to do that.

Chris (17:03.916)

Yeah, this team is facing adversity right now in terms of how they've been tested by some of these teams and they've handled it well and they've continued to do the things that they should be doing. They haven't reverted back to bad habits. They haven't, I don't want to say turned on each other, but tried to do it all on their own in a one-on-one situation.

They continue to play this team style. They continue to share the basketball. It's not always going to be perfect, right? It's not always going to be pretty. Winning in the NBA is difficult. Winning 13 games in a row is difficult. They're the hunted now. They're going to get everybody's best shot. Even a shorthanded Philly team, even a bad Chicago team, a team that's probably going to be headed to the lottery this year.

You know what mean? These are still NBA players and the Cavs are going to continue to get tested like this. And I think it's good for them. I think it's good for them to see how they deal with adversity at this time of year and to get the validation that the things that they're preaching, the things that Kenny Atkinson is instilling into them, the habits that they're trying to build, those things are happening.

And those things are being maintained even when they're trailing in a game or even when they're being tested or even when a team is going on a run late in the fourth quarter the way the Philly did to cut it to one possession multiple times. All of this stuff that is happening for the Cavs, like it's teaching them different things.

and they're learning through wins, which is something that any team would sign up for rather than learning through losses.

Ethan Sands (18:59.63)

And this is a team that keeps talking about it, right? Like, and I feel like it's a reiterating story. Like it's a different person saying kind of the same thing, because they're all in the same mindset, Chris. Like they are learning, as you said, through wins, what they're learning together, right? And again, tonight Kenny Atkinson threw out another lineup that we have never seen before, like put together and before. And that's not only showing again.

his confidence in the bench and his confidence in the roster, but what this team can do when everybody goes to a different level. It depends. It's an 82 game season, Chris. Injuries are a thing, right? Wear and tear is a thing. Some guys might have to, we saw it tonight with Joel Embiid and Paul George. Injury management, workload management, just sitting out for rest in games.

Are the Cavs going to be able to mix and match players in certain scenarios when they need to? Right? That's why we've already seen Kenny Atkinson run with Dean Wade at the five. We've seen Kenny Atkinson put Karras the vert at the four. Right? Things that most coaches and especially last year, different coaches would not have done to test the viability of these lineups. And it's creating different trust in different chemistry because

Last year was like, you're throwing me in this lineup. I've never played with them in this certain particular mesh But now it's like I know what you do. I know what you like I know where you like it I know all of these different things when you talk about the offensive end of the ball And that is going to create a different level of offensive know-how for this Cavs team no matter what they go through Throughout the season sure it's early but what they're doing can last for a long time

Chris (20:52.792)

Yeah, that's the belief. Create something sustainable and build these... build these habits right now. Championship level habits. And... It feels like they're doing it. Again, like I said, like, not every possession is going to be perfect. Not every game is going to be considered a quote-unquote, step forward. But there are different things that you're seeing on a nightly basis from this team that point to them

being better equipped for when it matters the most. If they continue down this path.

Ethan Sands (21:33.934)

And Chris, you mentioned it, right? Like there are guys on opposing teams and there are players, this is an NBA. Like these are supposedly the, arguably the best players in the world, right? And Jared McCain, 20 years old, right? Dropped a 30 ball drop. And it's because he got a lot of confidence from the surrounding figures, right? I heard or read an about what he's been going through with Philly, especially with.

their top three guys out for certain games to start the season and how they've instilled confidence in him. Right. And then you think about other teams that the Cavs are going to face, right. The Bulls, Zach Levin, Kobe White running that offense to a different level. Then you talk about the Charlotte Hornets, LaMelo Ball, seemingly having the green light from almost anywhere on the floor and being able to do that. Right, Chris. But for me, how these guys are going to be contained.

Chris (22:28.055)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (22:31.844)

how these guys are gonna be guarded because like they could be stars, the Cavs have defensive prowess players that can keep up with and stall some of these guys as well. And that's part of the reason why I think Kenny Atkinson has kept with the starting lineup that he has with Isaac Okoro in that starting mix. And it could continue that way going into Friday and then even especially into Sunday. But Chris, Isaac Okoro has been a key piece

to what they've been able to do. My question to you, is Isaac Okoro a true 3D threat this year?

Chris (23:13.678)

Well, he's playing like it. I think we have to keep it in perspective though, every time we have a conversation about Isaac, it's an understanding that nobody is guarding him and he's getting some of the easiest, best, open three-pointers of anybody in the entire NBA. Now, he's capitalizing on those for the most part and that's a credit to him.

because the Cavs are going to need him to make those shots. If teams are going to load up and try and get the ball out of the hands of Donovan, Darius, if they're going to try and make things difficult on Evan Mobley and Jared Allen in the paint, somebody is going to be the beneficiary of that. And it continues to be Isaac. He continues to get wide open or open three point shots. And to his credit, he is knocking them down. Kenny Atkinson even talks about it pregame tonight. He said, like,

Isaac needs to believe he's a better shooter than what he believes himself to be. Like we need him to believe that he's a better shooter. And I think Isaac has put in a ton of work behind the scenes, but there's still a level of, is this the best shot for us? Is this the best thing for us? There was even one...

I don't know if he was wiping his hand or what it was. It was early on in the game. I believe it was from Donovan. Isaac got in in the corner and he almost traveled because he seemed indecisive. But they need to try and get that part out of the game. But you can tell that there's still a level of hesitation with him. Despite the fact that he is shooting a better than expected percentage and despite the fact that

He has been making opposing defenses pay for their strategy of sagging off on him. I think when you talk about changing a reputation, it certainly takes more than just 13 games. Gotta continue to see it from Isaac before you start saying 3-and-D. Gotta see it from Isaac in the playoff environment, especially when everything gets heightened. But he's playing like and he's being utilized like

Chris (25:35.808)

a 3-and-D type player and that's, you know, when the Cavs drafted him a number of years ago, that's what eventually they envisioned. And if he continues to knock down these open threes and he continues to shoot at a high percentage and increase the volume tonight, getting up six, that's a big step for somebody like Isaac in changing that reputation and becoming

more of an offensive threat than what he's perceived to be.

Ethan Sands (26:09.924)

Chris, I'm so glad you brought up that play. my God. What are you doing? Right? Like I remember even after the game, Evan Mobley posted on his Instagram story with the video of Isaac O'Coro doing that little hesitation, pulling it back down, wiping his hand off and then shooting the ball. And he was like, this was crazy.

Chris (26:16.308)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (26:35.49)

And I think everybody in the arena, everybody that was watching the game had the same reaction, right? Because obviously, you know, like the other guys, like more known shooters, more well-known shooters have their own little taunts before they shoot. Like some guys will shimmy, some guys will point, some like all these different things. But we have talked about on this podcast at length, the amount of times that Isaac Okoro has immediately gone into that jab step.

rather than just going up with the basketball. And that had seemed to this part in the season, like it was gone. And then he did it again and did a variation of it in this game. And I was like, no, please don't tell me you're going back to this because you have worked so hard. And I've said it on podcast before, every time we walk into shoot around practice, whatever, Isaac Okoro is working on a three point shot from more than likely the same places on the-

on court and all these different things. him doing that, I know it wasn't, it looked like he was wiping off his hand because the ball might have been sweaty or whatever. like seeing him do that gave me a flashback. I was like, please don't do this. Like you've been doing like he's shooting 48.5 % through 13 games from three point. You've been doing so well. Obviously, I think he's only shooting like two and a half threes per game at this point. But like

Chris (27:44.622)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (28:04.848)

The amount that you have grown from your shooting perspective is monumental to this team and something that he needs to continue to do as you talked about. But Chris, Donovan Mitchell again showed off who he is. And this is a game where the Cavs felt like coming in on paper, they should have ran away with it, right? Still 13 games in 22 days.

It's crazy to think about how condensed the schedule is, what they've been going through, like all the players not playing necessarily to their highest standard. Donovan talking about it a couple games ago, how it had been wearing on them, the schedule that is. And then he comes out and scores 11 points to close out the game and seal the deal. Donovan Mitchell has had games where he hasn't played the best.

Donovan Mitchell has also played games where you think he is should be an MVP candidate. Where do you think that he is on what this team needs and then where he is league wise?

Chris (29:17.368)

He is an MVP candidate. He should be an MVP candidate because he is contributing to winning at the highest level. And I think that's what it comes down to when talking about Donovan. His impact on winning is evident nightly. And he's talked about this. There is a maturation that has taken place with Donovan and part of it is the confidence that he has in Evan Mobley, the belief that he has in Darius Garland and

the rest of his teammates and those guys coming through in different ways than they have in the past. Those guys playing at a level that is different than what they've played in the past. Donovan has willingly taken a step back. Donovan is third on this team in total touches per game. That didn't happen last year. That didn't happen the year before that. That didn't happen when he was in Utah. In many ways in the past, he's been this

Heliocentric offensive force that has been pigeonholed as a score and he can go get 30. He's capable of it He can score the final 11 for this team. He's capable of it. Saw it tonight against Philadelphia Season-high 36 points the other night against Chicago But but he is doing the things That that the Cavs need from him and what they need from him varies on a nightly basis

What they need from him is going to vary based on game flow, game situation, matchup. And that to me is the maturation of Donovan Mitchell and understanding of his own that he needed to empower Evan Mobley and Darius Garland in a different kind of way. He needed to elevate Evan Mobley and Darius Garland in a different kind of way. And

He has taken a step back so that those other guys can take a step forward. And that's why he's an MVP candidate. Because the things that he is doing on a nightly basis are all contributing to winning. If you think about it tonight, he nearly had a triple double. He wanted a triple double, by the way. He apologized to his teammates and to the fans for trying to get a triple double and passing up a wide open dunk or a layup that he had.

Chris (31:42.062)

Immediately after that, he like pounded his own head and he was shaking his head and it pained him. But he wanted the triple double because he's never had one in his career. But like that's the way that he can impact winning. He can do a variety of different things. So some nights it's going to be, I'm going to be a decoy and I'm going to draw attention from the defense that's going to make it easier on my teammates. Other nights it's going to be all right.

I'm going to finish defensive possessions with rebounds. I'm going to get in the passing lanes. I'm going to get these deflections and these steals. I'm going to take on a tough defensive assignment. Donovan is doing whatever it takes to win at the highest level. And he is doing it at an extremely high level. And if the leader of the team, the bona fide leader of the team...

who is as impactful as Donovan is on a nightly basis. I'm a team that is 13 and 0 to start the season. If that guy is not an MVP candidate, then we have to find a new definition for MVP.

Ethan Sands (32:53.004)

And you talk about doing whatever the team needs, right? We mentioned Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, not being at 100 % coming into this game. Donovan Mitchell said, okay, I'll be the leading rebounder for the Cavs coming away with 13 rebounds, right? Like this is a guy not known for getting boards. This is a guy known for being a small guard that people feel like they can attack.

on the defensive end, all these different things, but a bona fide score as you mentioned, Chris. Then you talk about the want for a triple double and having nine assists, ending with nine assists and not being able to get it. But there is no other superstar in the league that will not in a post game press conference where it's like just with reporters, but on TV.

with the with the local or national television set be like hey I apologize because I I did something that I shouldn't have done that might have impacted this team negatively right he even said it I almost cost the team the win because I didn't take that layup or dunk or whatever you think he might have done he was up there he literally was already in the air and you think about what that could have done not only for morale but also for his conscience and instead

Chris (34:00.11)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (34:17.988)

the Cavs still walk away with the win. For him to take accountability, and you talked about the maturation of him as a leader, for me, and what he's been able to do and accomplish in the stat sheet, sure by itself, but as a leader, as someone who is looked at as the franchise face, someone who all the Cavs turn to, not only for advice and winning mentality,

But Jalen Tyson came in as a part of the Cavs and said, I already know what to do with my career because I just have to copy Donovan. I just have to be what Donovan is. Look at what he does, how he operates. And that's how a leader should be, right? Players on your team that aren't to your level, to your standard, that want to get there should look to you and be like, that's who I want to be. That's what I want to be like.

when it comes to not only how you play, but also who you are as a person outside of the game. That's also what we talk about with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell's relationship, right? Darius loves Donovan. He, in an interview, I think it was after the Brooklyn Nets game, was talking to Serena Winters, a fan duel, and was like, do I talk about him what he did tonight, or do I talk about what he does outside of here that I love enjoying being around?

Right. And that's the type of person, because obviously Chris, we talk a lot about the game of basketball, but these are people at the end of the day. And if you can rally a team from your persona, from your personality, that'll get you further than wins and losses. Obviously we keep talking about it. 13 and up, 16 in NBA history, do it. Tying a franchise record in Winning Street. All great things. But what is going to get you through the hard times that get you to May, June, April, May, June. Right.

Chris (35:47.928)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (36:17.56)

And that's what Donovan Darius' entire team want. They're not focused on this win streak. Obviously it's great. It's in the back of their minds as they've said it, but there's a bigger goal. There's a bigger aspiration that they're trying to get to.

Chris (36:32.718)

I don't think Donovan gets enough credit, Ethan, for the kind of leader that he is and the kind of leader that he's been throughout the course of his career. It is not a coincidence that he has never missed the playoffs. You know, that's a big part of his story. And yeah, we can sit here and we can say, well, he's never been in the conference finals and he's never been in the finals, and that's true. And he understands that that's the next step, and that's why he has willingly taken a step back.

That's why he has accepted this different role, this new role that is unfamiliar for somebody like him. Because he wants to win at the highest level. And he sees greatness in Evan Mobley. And he sees an all-star caliber point guard in Darius Garland. And he wants those guys to have a bigger opportunity. He wants those guys to realize their own greatness. Because it's best for the Cavs.

for that to happen. But it's not coincidence that he's never missed the playoffs. His game translates to winning. The things that he's willing to sacrifice, the things that he's willing to do on a nightly basis. That's what you want from your superstar player. And he helps set the tone for this organization on a daily basis.

And that should not be overlooked in this whole conversation. And yeah, there are other superstars in the NBA that are doing the same thing. And that's why they're superstars. but I just don't think because Donovan hasn't had the same individual and team success in the playoffs. And I say individual because there was that stretch where he was kind of down and he was outplayed by Jalen Brunson.

his final year in Utah and then he was outplayed by Jalen Brunson again his first year in Cleveland. So there was that stretch where people were like, wait a minute, like is he still playoff Spidey? Like is he the guy from the bubble that was going shot for shot with Jamal Murray? Or is he somebody who is going to continue to get outplayed by these other superstars or whatever? So like there was that stretch that people started to doubt him despite early individual success.

Chris (38:51.576)

that he was having in the playoffs. So when you had those doubts and then you have a resume that is missing, any appearance beyond the semi-finals, I think the reputation starts to follow you, obviously, and I think it's impacted how people view him as a leader. And I think they should view him in a different kind of light because everywhere he has gone,

winning has followed. And he's been at the center of making sure those teams win. And he's doing it again for the Cavs. And you can just, I don't know how to define it. I don't know how to quantify it, but everybody inside that locker room says the same thing. There is a Donovan Mitchell effect on this team and it's felt up and down the roster.

Ethan Sands (39:49.56)

And the Cavs will get to feel that effect again as they return home to Cleveland and Rocky Morton's Fieldhouse, where I am sure the crowd will be as raunchy as it has been in the past coming home with a 13-0 streak, but also understanding that they are playing a Chicago Bulls team that gave them a little bit of problems on Monday. Hopefully they adjusted from that and get to reacclimate to their system.

Mindset and all those different things but Chris Fidor is back on the show, this time in a different location. The hotel looks a little swanky this time, Chris. You're living it up down there, or up there in Philly. I don't know, geography's hard.

Chris (00:30.682)

It's probably the smallest hotel room that I've ever been in my life, actually. It's as small as some of the ones that I stay in in New York, but it is a nice one. I will say that. It's tucked in like a little neighborhood, very close to everything. So I like it. I think I'm going to stay here more often. I usually stay closer to the arena, kind of in the Navy yard of Philly, but this time I'm staying downtown.

I wanted to kind of get a vibe of downtown and be close to some of my favorite food spots. So I picked a different hotel for the first time and it is very, very small, but it is nice. I will say that.

Feels like a cramped apartment if we're being honest.

Ethan Sands

That kind of makes sense. But Chris, I'm gonna ask you one food question before we get into everything. Chris, what is the best Philly cheesesteak spot in Philadelphia?

No, no, it's a running thing that I have going, Ethan, and I haven't determined it yet because every time I come to Philly, I go to a different Cheesecake spot. I've got a full list of like 10 to 15, and every time I come here, I try and go to a different one so that I can have my own internal writing system. I don't want to go by what Yelp says. I don't want to go by what Eater says. I don't want to go by some of these blogs in Philly. They have their own.

So I try to make sure that I go to a different one every single time. Today, this afternoon, it was Jim's on South Street. It was the first time that I was there. But I still have a couple of more on this list. And my Uber driver actually added two more to my list. So I feel like I need to stay on the beat for as long as it takes me to get through all these different cheesesteaks here in Philly.

So maybe I don't know maybe the Cavs and the 76ers will play in the playoffs and then I can finish off my cheesesteak list But the one that I had today from Jim's was very very good The only criticism that I have is I'm somebody who likes cheese on the side. I like to proportion my own cheese They did not allow me to do that Like it is against the rules of Jim's on South Street. I even asked him

I said, hey look, like there are little containers that you have that people are putting pickles in so that they can have them on the side. Can you just put the whiz in there? They said, we don't do that. And I said, we can make up a price. $2, $2.50. It doesn't have to be something that's on your menu. Can you just put it in that container right there? And they looked at me like I was an idiot. And I said, okay, drizzle the whiz on my sandwich as it is.

But then, like, it gets a little bit soggy and it's not the same taste that I'm used to. But Jim's in South Philly definitely probably, in terms of quality, it's probably in my top five at this point.

Ethan Sands

First of all, I just hope all of our subtexters and listeners are listening to Chris Rantz about putting cheese on the side of a Philly cheese steak. my goodness.

No, it's the Whiz! Like, that's the thing. They're gonna put provolone, or they're gonna put American, or they're gonna put Swiss on. You're gonna pick what kind of melted cheese you want. And then the Whiz... The Whiz is a different texture. It's a different taste. And I like it on the side so that I can determine how much of that I want on there. How much I want to dip into the Whiz. And they just wouldn't let me do that. So, they lose a couple of spots for their inflexibility. Thank you very much.

Ethan Sands

Man man. Alright, so I obviously coined this question to our subtexters earlier on in the week when we were kind of previewing this matchup with the 76ers and the Cavs and I said my favorite that I've been to is John's roast pork, right? That's my favorite one that I've been to and a lot of people were talking about Pats or Geno's being top of their list. Obviously those are renowned cheesesteak places.

in Philadelphia, but unfortunately...

Yeah, Ben Pats, Ben DiGinos, Ben DiCleavers, Ben DiDelassandros, Ben DiCampos. So like I said, I'm going through the list, man.

Ethan Sands

But when you listen to this podcast on Thursday November 14th It will mark my one year on the podcast with Chris and I just wanted to say thank you guys for listening Thank you guys for tuning in all your comments reviews We much appreciate it And if you are a subtexter you are gonna get a text tomorrow about what you want to improve on this podcast so

With all that being said, that'll wrap up today's episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a CAS Insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can give your insight not only into what you enjoy, what you want changed, what you want improved on the podcast, but tomorrow's episode will also include a Hey Chris episode. So send in your questions.

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